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Riddles of potential research level - continue from the tracker 146

New 1. July 26, 2018 01:51 pm
Town
Vienna
Team
Austria Lucky Fips R242
Division 1
what happened so far:
I have multiple designers, some high, some mid talented.
When I assign 2 designers my potential research level is at the very same level as with 8 designers

expected: even a less bright bulb will brighten the situation a bit - with 8 - 2 or 3 bright lights and 6 or 5 weaker once the (potential) research level should be at, or at least close to the maximum



14 Mai 2018 14:56

I think that's a feature, not a bug. But I agree, there should be a slight gain if you add many more staff.
Right now there is no gain in having more junior staff assigned.
I would suggest a compromise between the old and the new system.

Adam Eggbeer

14 Mai 2018 14:57

It's all about quality not quantity these days. You may have two people rated 8-9/10 but if three others are rated 3-5/10 they may not know any more than the other two so your knowledge hasn't improved.

Phil E

14 Mai 2018 21:55

yes, no, maybe - the point is that I strongly disagree that advanced minions do not help to improve the levels at all. I also disliked the previous system that a hoard of cheap monkeys can to excellent work- however the truth should be somewhere in the middle and it should make a difference to have 2 decent and 6 (not 3) advanced designers to 2 decent designers.

Frank Van Laere
15 Mai 2018 08:24

It's correct that right now it's no longer pure quantity, but more focused on quality. More specifically, right now it's focusing on the quality of the head designer and the juniors can only add so much.
I'm willing to change that as I get the point of this entry, but there would have to be some sort of limiting factor always. Because otherwise you will get teams that simply go maxed out in designers and I don't want a division 1 team with an average (poorly paid) designer and dozens of very bad designers who max out on their car.

Frank Van Laere

5 Juni 2018 08:39

Right, I've tried to find a compromise between both systems. To explain the system a bit: the game looks up the quality of the head designer, and then the sum of the quality of junior designers. Both are separate points that are only added together at the end.

I implemented the following change on the beta:
* The influence of the head designer is slightly reduced.
* The influence of each junior designers is slightly reduced.
* The total "points" that the junior designers can now generate (before they're added to the head points) are not capped by a hard limit, but can from now on no longer exceed the points that were generated by the head designer.

Feel free to test on beta and to give me feedback.

Japan Masuyo Phil E Pitwall Administrator

5 Juni 2018 09:35

I restored the designer crew on beta so it is equal to he game and there is no noticeable difference - although the synergy is maxed out on my beta team

The view is very limited so there might be a not visible difference
ratings in beta:
assigning 2 of my finest to head and junior designers has the same visible rating as assigning 5 designers (same head designer)

assigning my head designer and 3 juniors (but not my best "junior) show the same ratings BUT potentials seem to be lower message though the potential and current value are the same - assumption the change is not in the visible range

resume: no visible change for my team

points in beta:
no differences noted - even with no designers assigned to a role I have the same amount of designers quality points

something I noticed in the regular game is that the potential research level is better on monday, dropping tuesday and stay on the lower level - so the value might be on the edge

Belgien Frank Van Laere Pitwall Administrator

5 Juni 2018 09:47

For my team it has dropped by 2 levels so we would need more teams testing this.

Vereinigtes Königreich Adam Eggbeer Pitwall Administrator

5 Juni 2018 21:02

My team dropped 2 levels straight away and then I could make it drop another 4 levels by putting my worst designer as head.

Belgien Frank Van Laere Pitwall Administrator

6 Juni 2018 08:02

Right, I have merged the beta and the main game. But added a clause to it that the current season is still on the old system, but on the beta we're on the new system (so it can be tweaked before next season).

Österreich Lukas Fenninger Pitwall Administrator

6 Juni 2018 09:50

I have tested this on the beta. It dropped by one level with the same config as my current team. With assigning other head designer but the same overall designers I managed to drop it by another level.
And that is with 3 superb experience designers, who are not too bad rated, one with 4/5 (also good rated) experience and others with 3/5 and 2/5 (they suck) experience. So I think, if anything, that has gone in the opposite direction.

Österreich Lukas Fenninger Pitwall Administrator

6 Juni 2018 15:59

Update: Dont know if you have changed anything again Frank, but the research limit is now the same in the beta as in the main game and I havent changed anything around.

Belgien Frank Van Laere Pitwall Administrator

6 Juni 2018 19:55

I haven't changed the code, so not sure what happened there. I'll have a look later on when I get back to this.

Japan Masuyo Phil E Pitwall Administrator

11 Juni 2018 10:44

I see a change on the beta page - potential research level got even worse - so 100% the opposite of the intention of this report.

again, when a team has multiple staff it should not be that most of the staff is a worthless cost position who is not improving the team at all but cost money for being useless.

Japan Masuyo Phil E Pitwall Administrator

11 Juni 2018 10:48

but, it also can be that the dropping moral of the staff is causing this decrease of potential , which would be terrible for my moral - since I ran out of ideas how to play the game without over extending the time spend on this is very critical to me

Belgien Frank Van Laere Pitwall Administrator

11 Juni 2018 13:14

Well, all I can say is that there haven't been any changes. If it has changed since my last message, then it must be something else that played an influence.

Malta Jean Spiteri

27 Juni 2018 16:40

For what it's worth, I've tried putting the design team Susnik, Pachla and Erkens and on the beta server it gave around 2 bands less than the main.

Bahrain Nelson Dog

Dienstag 12:14

But the new system makes a mega head designer *more* important than previously, as he not only contributes his own points, but also affects the limit of *all* the juniors. Surely it would be more fair to limit the contribution of juniors by using some multiplier? Rank them by total skill, then 1.0xJunior 1 skills, 0.9xJ2, 0.8xJ3 etc etc?

Österreich Lukas Fenninger Pitwall Administrator

Dienstag 13:06

Nelson, to explain the situation: pre points system: it was possible to stack cheap juniors to get to superb. Frank then changed the system (the calculation) and it was really harsh - that was last season. For this season, designers needed should be in the middle of the two versions, so something less harsh.

What I dont understand: I havent lost key staff, and my potential limit also got worse, not a 100% sure why. I will continue to investigate, at the moment I do not have superb potential limit and my design team is far from weak. But also worth noting, not every team in Pitwall should have superb research. Its not realistic that div 3 teams have as high levels as div 1 teams.

Bahrain Nelson Dog

Dienstag 14:17

But Lukas, the new calculation is too dependent on the head designer skill, as a cap on all the juniors.

IMO, it should not be compulsory to hire a megastar head designer to succeed - stacking juniors ought to be an alternative (especially for smaller/newer/poorer teams), even if that stops them getting to the very highest research levels.

That is why I suggest the "multiplier" effect, where you can hire more junior designers without a hard/relative cap, but each extra designer has a smaller and smaller positive effect overall.

That strikes me as much fairer than the cap system, either "hard" cap or based on the head's skill.

Österreich Lukas Fenninger Pitwall Administrator

Dienstag 14:27

I agree, I also think its a bit too dependent on the head designer - as they are really hard to find - but there has to be some sort of cap so that it is impossible to get to the highest level just with many bad designers.

My problem is that I dont understand how this is calculated, and thus I find it hard to suggest something 'better'. In the end I think it does not matter too much, since the achievable level just shifted down by 1 or two for all of us. Div 1 teams do not reach 10/10 that easily, div 3 teams do not reach 7/10 that easily. So the overall design quality went down, but the relative quality differences between the divisions should have stayed somewhat constant.

I think its just something we have to get used to, that we cant max out every area of the game anymore - this is something Frank wants to achieve (see research, strategy, engine limit ect.)

Bahrain Nelson Dog

Dienstag 14:46

OK, so how about the max research is based on 2x the head designer's skill, then 1x the best junior, .8x junior 2 and reducing from there so that beyond the 5th junior there is almost no benefit from each extra?

At the moment, without a decent head, a lot of teams will struggle to get a research limit above 40%

Japan Masuyo Phil E Pitwall Administrator

Dienstag 15:29

my 2 best designers alone have the same potential as all of my designers, or in other words, I can fire 2 of 4 without quality loss. - same as the original request "When I assign 2 designers my potential research level is at the very same level as with 8 designers " (just with less designers) - the worst designer has 5/10 ratings. at the moment junior designers cost only money and do not have any value for the team (unless they improve their skills by being in a junior position)
same goes for mechanics

Belgien Frank Van Laere Pitwall Administrator

Dienstag 20:53

Nelson, basically it all comes down to the same. In your formula it's still going to be vital to have a good designer as he's worth more than double than what the first junior is worth. A quick calc in Excel shows this: https://imgur.com/a/7AQ5lqX

I checked the formula (which still has the old code available) and effectively:
* The impact of the head designer went down with 17%
* The impact of each junior designer went down with 17% (yes, the same, no copy paste error)
* The impact the total worth of junior designers can make is no longer limited to a value which is below 50%, but it's now limited to the total skill of the head designer.

In effect, this means that unless your head designer is worse than Bad, you should stay about the same (little lower since all make a slightly less big impact).

However, I also noticed that the code was still set to a setting which meant that it's only active in season 15 and beta. I've updated the code and everyone should check their rating again as there's no more mix of code now.

Vereinigtes Königreich Will Willatt

Dienstag 21:55

If I can add one thing to this I don’t understand. If there is a reason for it that’s great. My potential research limit is better when my best “head” designer is set to junior rather than head. Surely it should be the other way around? I fully accept the level drops I’ve had as like Lukas said it’s the same for all. But surely the calculation is a bit out somewhere when you have to make your best designer a junior to get a better research limit?

Belgien Frank Van Laere Pitwall Administrator

Dienstag 21:58

That's true Will. Today it'll be hard to investigate, but I'll do my best to do so after work. I'll see if there's an oversight somewhere.

Bahrain Nelson Dog

Dienstag 21:59

Frank - thanks for the explanation. It's more the concept of a hard cap that I think is wrong - surely diminishing returns for each new designer would be more fair? (you can tweak the exact multipliers, the examples above were just off the top of my head)

Also, when you refer to the head designer skill, what are you referring to? Talent, experience, inv/rep, or some combination?

Deutschland Sascha Szöbb Pitwall Supporter

Gestern 09:09

My Potential is on Beta as well 1 level worse than here in main game. On which factor is the calculation of potential research level based? On Experience only or only on the stats inventive and reproductive? or both?
If I replace my head designer which has experience 2/5 reproductive 7/10 and inventive 6/10, with my best designer which has experience 2/5 reproductive 9/10 and inventive 7/10 the potential dropped. And if I set my best experienced designer with 3/5 as head designer it even dropped more.

Japan Masuyo Phil E Pitwall Administrator

Gestern 09:36

I still have no idea how or why
when I have one of my 2 bright bulbs assigned as head designer and a second designer assigned as junior I have the same potential as when I have assigned all of my designers - 2 of 4 do not have an influence.

the other thing I do not understand is the excel - there is no way to rank junior designers, they are ordered alphabetically - is this handled internally? best junior is junior 1?

Österreich Lukas Fenninger Pitwall Administrator

Gestern 09:44

"In effect, this means that unless your head designer is worse than Bad, you should stay about the same (little lower since all make a slightly less big impact)."

Well, my head designer is (a lot) better than bad and my level dropped by one (initially two, but it went back up one level again without me changing anything). Strange.

Österreich Lukas Fenninger Pitwall Administrator

Gestern 10:36

Just played around on the BETA: I can confirm, 2 desigers have the same level (within the 10% band) as the same 2 + 6 other designers.

Belgien Frank Van Laere Pitwall Administrator

18 hours ago

I've looked through the teams who reported issues. But basically their main designer is always just not good enough.
I implemented this because I wanted to prevent teams to get a bunch of bad designers, including a bad head designer. With this new system it's no longer possible to save a lot of money this way. You can't expect to get a lot of bad drivers but still get great results on track either.

As a compromise, I've raised the limit where it caps off based on the head designers skill. It's now the head designers skill multiplied by 1.5. I won't raise it any further, as I feel that this should be more than sufficient.

Bahrain Nelson Dog

17 hours ago

Thanks Frank - but can you give us an idea what we should be looking for in a designer? Talent, experience, or skills?

Also, is there any plan to bring back training camps for staff to improve their skills?

Österreich Lukas Fenninger Pitwall Administrator

17 hours ago

Just my 2 cents: I was not complaining about low level, I am fine with that as it affects all teams. What bothers me is probably the same thing that Philip dislikes: 2 designers give the same results like 8 designers.

Again, I fully support this decision as it was ridiculous in the old system. What I dislike is that having 2 designers is enough to achieve that high level. Adding a 3rd one does not do anything (for me). Maybe that is solved with the 1.5 multiplier.

Anyway, thanks for clarification!

Deutschland Sascha Szöbb Pitwall Supporter

16 hours ago

It looks like that only experience does count for calculating the Potential, doesn't it?

Bahrain Nelson Dog

16 hours ago

Really? Not talent or skills?

Deutschland Sascha Szöbb Pitwall Supporter

16 hours ago

I don't know, it was just a guess out of above posts. It was more3a question than a statement.

Österreich Lukas Fenninger Pitwall Administrator

15 hours ago

No, experience is important, but actual skills are more important. A superb designer with terrible experience will give you better results than a terrible designer with superb experience.

Proof: I got a few superb experience designers, my potential is not superb.

Deutschland Sascha Szöbb Pitwall Supporter

15 hours ago

But that I don't understand. Why is my Potential lower when I implement my better designer as head. See above post...

"...If I replace my head designer which has experience 2/5 reproductive 7/10 and inventive 6/10, with my best designer which has experience 2/5 reproductive 9/10 and inventive 7/10 the potential dropped."

Vereinigtes Königreich Adam Eggbeer Pitwall Administrator

15 hours ago

Are you talking about Jansen and Heyns? If so, your scout reports are different to mine.

Deutschland Sascha Szöbb Pitwall Supporter

7 hours ago

No, Jansen & Lingnau

Deutschland Sascha Szöbb Pitwall Supporter

6 hours ago

But Adam, I would more rely on the stats revealed by my scout than yours, as your scout has a determine stat of Bad.
New 2. July 26, 2018 01:57 pm
Town
Vienna
Team
Austria Lucky Fips R242
Division 1
so the latest new were or are the intermediate "fix" (from status page:
Development, CHANGED: The head staff cap for juniors with which the potential research limit is calculated is now multiplied by 1.5 for now.

which is in my point of view to much - first complain of to little effect of designers, now they have to much - never happy ;)

however with this INTERMEDIATE change my team can use full potential- I guess end of the season...

I would like a, finer granularity in the levels - 5% steps - e.g. 70-75%, 90-95% --- more than 95% should be almost impossible to achieve (super team with max synergy, moral, discipline and so on - even a unmotivated junior should kill that... (under 95%)...

and the closer you get to max it should take longer to bring the research level to the potential research level...
New 3. July 26, 2018 06:48 pm
Team
Austria Fenninger Racing
Division 1
Agreed. My team is now also at superb, raising it from 1 to 1.5 is maybe too much - Frank could check all the research limits of all teams in pitwall, the average should be somewhere around 5, maybe 6/7 for more fun. Maybe a multiplier like 1.25 is better, I dont know.
New 4. July 30, 2018 07:02 am
Town
Vienna
Team
Austria Lucky Fips R242
Division 1
back to old calculation of research potential?
New 5. July 30, 2018 09:38 am
Team
Austria Fenninger Racing
Division 1
For me it is still the same.
New 6. August 22, 2018 11:55 am
Town
Vienna
Team
Austria Lucky Fips R242
Division 1
still, not much change- there was an improvement for half a week but now my team is back to were it was ... whatev (reflects my morale/motivation)

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