Forum topic: Hi Frank

Gday Frank

Thank you for giving us all an update on where you are up to.
I like everyone else also understand you have had a lot on your plate recently.

You may or may not have seen in the chat that i am looking to finish up for a bit at the end of the season. I will keep dropping in to see how the new system is going but for a bit im out. The game has just become too unrealistic which has made it hard to follow.

I would like to give my 2 cents on the game where I think you have some big strengths and where it might be letting you down. I feel I have been playing it long enough to have a little bit of input.

As you mentioned and is pretty common knowledge PW1 was a lot more popular and it seems it has been dropping ever since.

I think the biggest area that has let the game down is that it is near impossible to build a team. And by that i mean start with staff/drivers.facilities/team that may not be very good now but aim that in 3 or 4 seasons they are competitive. Keep a group of people together tweak as needed and grow. It should be set up that a teams "cycle" is 5-9 seasons. You start with a group of people (Staff/drivers) tweak and grow your current team. After 3-5 seasons it possible to be in div 1 and after
7-9 seasons it starts to get too expensive or hard to stay up there.

Most of this difficulty in growing relates to staff. I know in real life you dont really know who you are hiring but i think that most people will know whos who to a certain extent. Currently the rankings system is that messed up that I have seen and had staff who are terrible in every stat, ranked very high and want a fortune in contracts. Not only that but you have to rely on scouts to give you a rough idea and they are next to useless most of the time.
I also have seen younger staff/drivers asking huge amounts of money and have not really done anything to prove it. This becomes a big problem if someone wants to build a driver/staff up but has some success along the way with the team.
I think you need to simplify this a lot. Have price groups based on stats and only have extra charges on top once the staff/driver is in div one and winning races etc. That way staff dont get a big head on lower divisions and want big money before getting to the big league.

The same can be said for development.
I currently have very little idea on how to produce a winning car/team that can stay competitive. I know that in 2 -3 season if i start winning the staff I have now will be too expensive or be that unhappy because they will want more money mid-contract that will only mean I will have to look for new staff in a system where its very difficult to find new people based on the ranking system.
My last team Slinky racing was a good example of this.
I grew a team from lower divisions.
I had signed what i though were good staff/drivers and had a couple of them on pretty decent bonuses so much so that it sunk my team. Now granted i made those contracts which was my mistake and it was under system that has been revised but a lot of people still find themselves in a similar spot.

The development system is a little too complex. I would have no idea if the next part i make is going to be any good and the stats that come out are a bit of a lottery. There are big changes for next season and to be honest I have only had a very brief look at the beta version so I am not sure if it is better or not.
I also dont really know where to focus on or what will give bigger or smaller gains. There is no "road map" to success.
I have been playing this game for many years, this should be something someone can work out after a season or two at most.
I think it has just become too intense. Maybe limit each part to weight, durability and performance(which has a base stat based on designer but then improves based on the amount of laps done, kinda like a mechanic getting used to the part). Still make people do laps to find out what they are like so you can redevelop but have the part perform better the longer it is used. That way people are likely to sit on a part a bit longer to have the team understand the part more which makes it faster. Or they might take a risk and develop a new part early to try get better results in half a season compared to other teams. Also Make the part ranking a lot easier. Div three teams have parts ranked from 1-4, div two 4-7 and div 1 7-10. when you get promoted you will most likely have the base parts for that division based on being the best from the lower division and you get a year off from relegation. Within the parts you have 5.1, 5.2, 5.3 - 5.10 When you get to 5.10 you then work on 6.1. You could use the exact same system for staff and drivers. Relate their score to their income and off you go.
I would say though that it needs to be realistic to an extent but dont go overboard. It was a while ago but a remember PW1 being realistic but also a lot easier to manage and to plan what to do next.
I feel you can make this a lot lot simpler while still having realism.


I dont feel you need to change production or anything else to a points system you have it sorted pretty well I think. Parts take time to develop and build. Its simple and realistic.
I think you have that area pretty spot on.

You are right that back in the PW1 days people played on computers. This is a thing of the past and it would appear one of the main areas of growth is making everything mobile friendly. That is either an app on a page layout that is easier to use. But either option will require the system to be easier and the game a little simpler.

I see you are also looking to make the game less people interactive by having your own league filled with Ai and doing away with the 7-day cycle. I could be wrong here, if so please disregard the following.
It will probably attract people but I also very strongly feel that those are the two main reason I didnt pick a lot of other games.
I think its great having a competition where you are racing other real people its probably one of the main reason a lot of people have stuck around. I would have hung up my racing gloves years ago unless there were people in my divisions and the game to chat to. I really hope you reconsider this. All good to have Ai in div three if its not full but dont fill the game with it. Try to keep it a community game. People racing people.
With that comes the 7 day cycle where you can only test or do qualy on certain days. Again this is what i consider one of the greatest strengths of Pitwall. Please dont underestimate how much realism this adds to the game that no other game I have found has. It gives you a nice niche that will attract people.
That fact that you cant just skip through and that there are things you can only do on a certain day is great. It adds more to the realism then i think is given credit. Really enjoy the nights where the F1 race is one then either just before or after is my PW race. The only thing I would change about this is having a "holiday" mode where you can go away from teh game for a certain amoutn of time and not have your team go backwards.

Frank if it was me I would be looking at what made PW stronger years ago and start looking a the things that have been implemented that caused a drop off in people.

* Keep a 7 day cycle
* Keep Ai out unless its the lower division
* Make the staff and driver contracts simple simple simple.
* Focus on making it clear and simple on how to progress your team
* Do away with a complex development system.

I dont mean to sound like im bagging this all out Frank I know you have put a lot of work into this game over they years and I have spent a huge amount of hours playing it.
I just can see that its moving away from what made it great. all those years ago. Realism is great but only if its understood.

Excellent review, I'd say I pretty much agree in tandem those thoughts.

The current production is spot on; it's the contract problems, inflated wages, drivers stuck in defunct teams, morale issues and cloudy scout system that are the areas that make an otherwise superb game frustrating.

Pitwall 1 flourished because it stayed simple. Small bugs were fixed, ideas grew organically. Now, there are too many ideas the bugs don't get the attention they need.

It's the small fixes, not the overhauls.

* I think the AI teams to fill up divisions is a good idea. Just like the youth races, fill up the divs, and replace them if a new team signes.

* Keep the 7 days cycle. When I started Pitwall, I was hard to wait for me. But after a few days I started loving this, thats just pure realism. And I am still looking forward to every qualy and race like I did in week 1. Its just really really exciting that way. That excitement would be gone very fast if you can race twice a day.

* Fix morale issues. I havent had them yet, but I can see that it leads to frustration very fast.

* Regarding development/ how to be successful: I dont think there needs to be much of a change. The dev system is good, its realistic to wait until a part gets finished. And I dont think there needs to be a lot of clarification on how to be successful. I started PW in S6W5, and I think I am pretty competitive right now. And if there is only one way to be successful, then everyone would be doing the same and a lot of excitement would be gone agian. It would be just a matter of being online or whatever, and everyone would have similar cars. I like that you can decide on what to develop.

I'd like to see loyalty play a part with staff and drivers, rather than being drawn to the highest bidder. Now it's pretty much a numbers game.

#1 by Tim Watts
Most of this difficulty in growing relates to staff. I know in real life you dont really know who you are hiring but i think that most people will know whos who to a certain extent. Currently the rankings system is that messed up that I have seen and had staff who are terrible in every stat, ranked very high and want a fortune in contracts. Not only that but you have to rely on scouts to give you a rough idea and they are next to useless most of the time.
I also have seen younger staff/drivers asking huge amounts of money and have not really done anything to prove it. This becomes a big problem if someone wants to build a driver/staff up but has some success along the way with the team.
I think you need to simplify this a lot. Have price groups based on stats and only have extra charges on top once the staff/driver is in div one and winning races etc. That way staff dont get a big head on lower divisions and want big money before getting to the big league.

The rankings for staff/drivers/users are all messed up. I've got a designer ranked 44th that is available at the moment but wants lots of money and is useless. Another team has offered him a contract and I know it won't help that team to sign him. At the moment, a junior seems to get given the same ranking points as the head in the same team when really a junior in a div 1 team should be considered the same as head in a div 3 team at best.

#1 by Tim Watts
The development system is a little too complex. I would have no idea if the next part i make is going to be any good and the stats that come out are a bit of a lottery. There are big changes for next season and to be honest I have only had a very brief look at the beta version so I am not sure if it is better or not.
I also dont really know where to focus on or what will give bigger or smaller gains. There is no "road map" to success.
I have been playing this game for many years, this should be something someone can work out after a season or two at most.
I think it has just become too intense. Maybe limit each part to weight, durability and performance(which has a base stat based on designer but then improves based on the amount of laps done, kinda like a mechanic getting used to the part). Still make people do laps to find out what they are like so you can redevelop but have the part perform better the longer it is used. That way people are likely to sit on a part a bit longer to have the team understand the part more which makes it faster. Or they might take a risk and develop a new part early to try get better results in half a season compared to other teams. Also Make the part ranking a lot easier. Div three teams have parts ranked from 1-4, div two 4-7 and div 1 7-10. when you get promoted you will most likely have the base parts for that division based on being the best from the lower division and you get a year off from relegation. Within the parts you have 5.1, 5.2, 5.3 - 5.10 When you get to 5.10 you then work on 6.1. You could use the exact same system for staff and drivers. Relate their score to their income and off you go.
I would say though that it needs to be realistic to an extent but dont go overboard. It was a while ago but a remember PW1 being realistic but also a lot easier to manage and to plan what to do next.
I feel you can make this a lot lot simpler while still having realism.

The PW1 development system was not the best. Yes you could see progress and it was simple to use but it also meant that the people at the top had it easy as they didn't need to play catch-up on development. Every year they would get a part at the same level or better. It meant that if you started the game early on, you always had an advantage. I joined about season 4 or 5 and I remember getting to about 90% of the best part by the end but development has less gains on the best parts the better your part was so that last gain was pretty much impossible. It wasn't realistic as you never see one team dominating in F1 season after season.

The system coming out next season I feel is a little too much the other way. There is a lot going on and I can see it being confusing when you first use it which doesn't help new players. I feel the system we have at the moment is pretty much spot on and just needs some automation. Parts decrease in rating over time so you have to keep developing and can't just sit on good parts forever and never develop, which then allows you to spend money in other areas like getting the top staff on huge wages, etc. Without the rating drops, it just helps to keep teams at the top once they reached it.

I don't like the part rankings in your idea. That is too much like PW1 where people can get to a good point and stay there. I'm guessing if you get relegated, you get the top level on the tier below which means that it's going to take teams getting promoted ages to catch up. There is very little chance of getting back to back promotions. If you get a year off from relegation then you will find that you could finish 5th in the division, score 100 odd points, win a race or 2 perhaps and still get relegated which isn't fair. If you get promoted, you should have to earn your spot in the division above.

As for there being no road map to success, that is wrong. There isn't one direct route but several and it's up to you to choose which way you want to go about it. If there was only one route to the top then it isn't mentally stimulating as you just have to go through the motions to get to the top with no skill involved.

#1 by Tim Watts
I dont feel you need to change production or anything else to a points system you have it sorted pretty well I think. Parts take time to develop and build. Its simple and realistic.
I think you have that area pretty spot on.

Agreed. All it need is automation.

#1 by Tim Watts
I see you are also looking to make the game less people interactive by having your own league filled with Ai and doing away with the 7-day cycle. I could be wrong here, if so please disregard the following.
It will probably attract people but I also very strongly feel that those are the two main reason I didnt pick a lot of other games.
I think its great having a competition where you are racing other real people its probably one of the main reason a lot of people have stuck around. I would have hung up my racing gloves years ago unless there were people in my divisions and the game to chat to. I really hope you reconsider this. All good to have Ai in div three if its not full but dont fill the game with it. Try to keep it a community game. People racing people.
With that comes the 7 day cycle where you can only test or do qualy on certain days. Again this is what i consider one of the greatest strengths of Pitwall. Please dont underestimate how much realism this adds to the game that no other game I have found has. It gives you a nice niche that will attract people.
That fact that you cant just skip through and that there are things you can only do on a certain day is great. It adds more to the realism then i think is given credit. Really enjoy the nights where the F1 race is one then either just before or after is my PW race. The only thing I would change about this is having a "holiday" mode where you can go away from teh game for a certain amoutn of time and not have your team go backwards.

Fully agree. The AI isn't good in the youth races at the moment so it won't add anything to the empty divisions as it currently stands. There are games on the web where you can race every day or qualify one day and race the next but they very quickly get boring. You are doing the same things every day and it all gets repetitive. With Pitwall you can have a break and do things when you want to. Plus if you are busy in real life for a day, it doesn't cause problems in the game as you have a good period in which to do what you need to.

#5 by Adam Eggbeer
I don't like the part rankings in your idea. That is too much like PW1 where people can get to a good point and stay there. I'm guessing if you get relegated, you get the top level on the tier below which means that it's going to take teams getting promoted ages to catch up. There is very little chance of getting back to back promotions. If you get a year off from relegation then you will find that you could finish 5th in the division, score 100 odd points, win a race or 2 perhaps and still get relegated which isn't fair. If you get promoted, you should have to earn your spot in the division above.

It was a 12pm at night idea so far from complete. I was a little tired haha.
But i think it could work. Add a fatigue rating to the designer and each year depending on where you finish in the rankings your parts fall in value between say 0.8 - 1.5 depending on how good the designer is. That matched with the designer wanting more money if you are winning will add a natural team drop stopping anyone from sitting at the top.This would only be for Div 1.
If you drop a division your parts may be a bit more rubbish anyway but you could haev a similar set up where parts drop as people are unhappy.
Having said that I do also think it should be possible for people to sit at the top for 2 or 3 seasons. It happens in f1 now and i think it adds more to the game having to knock of the big dog.
Fair call with the relegation thought.

#5 by Adam Eggbeer
As for there being no road map to success, that is wrong. There isn't one direct route but several and it's up to you to choose which way you want to go about it. If there was only one route to the top then it isn't mentally stimulating as you just have to go through the motions to get to the top with no skill involved.

I think i was trying to get a slightly different point of view on this one. It more based around it not being very easy to see which way is working or what the directions are. With the staff/drivers system being broken and development needed some tweaking its not exactly straight forward to make a decision on what to concentrate on. I certainly agree it needs to be a thinking man/womans game but even a thinking man/woman needs to see what is working and what isnt to make better decisions. At a minimum it needs to be more transparent to make sure new gamers will stay interested.

#4 by Dan Mills
I'd like to see loyalty play a part with staff and drivers, rather than being drawn to the highest bidder. Now it's pretty much a numbers game.

Yeh i agree I think this can greatly help being able to build a team.

Just my thoughts. I will stop playing if we stop the 7 day cycle as this is what makes the game

Tim Watts:I think i was trying to get a slightly different point of view on this one. It more based around it not being very easy to see which way is working or what the directions are. With the staff/drivers system being broken and development needed some tweaking its not exactly straight forward to make a decision on what to concentrate on. I certainly agree it needs to be a thinking man/womans game but even a thinking man/woman needs to see what is working and what isnt to make better decisions. At a minimum it needs to be more transparent to make sure new gamers will stay interested.

I agree with this statement since while we have a clear road map to success (a few options) but they take years to plan and map out with no clear indication if they are working unless you are an experienced player. That being said the whole production and building of your team is based on this whole idea now as it take season like you mentioned above instead of a season or two. You can fast track this in some ways like cash but now you must decide who and what areas you are going to focus your team. IE. Driver, Engineers or Commercial even youth program. You can no longer have them all at once without killing your team.

Overall I have liked a lot of the changes to the game but I will also agree that the game is too complicated at the moment with way too many bugs not being fixed or features not working as expected. So a simplified versus of the game at the moment would help Frank and the whole gaming community.

Sadly, I see the game as dying the slow death since Frank doesn't seem to have the time to create, adjust and implement the changes needed in a timely fashion and while we all understand this; we are also playing game for fun and enjoyment. If it doesn't work correctly then the fun and enjoyment leave and so do we eventually.

This is no longer a game where you see instance progress and simple takes too long to become competitive so becomes like work; which is why I no longer enjoy the game. I dropped on purpose last season after finishing second in division 3 back into division 3 since I knew I didn't have a good car to be competitive but I am still being killed in division 3 and will still promote again. How is this fun??

I am over 3 seconds off the pace in division 3 so I am guessing I am going to be more then 5 seconds off the pace if not more in division 2. Looking at all the good players and teams quitting and it easy to understand that we don't have balanced divisions causing the great gaps in pace and placement.

I am here at the moment due to loyalty since I have played a long time but I cannot see myself staying much longer if the Season 9 updates come it as planned since they don't work correctly and as soon as I have some success since it is currently more about the process then the actual end results.

I missed two weeks of races and I know that it doesn't effect my standings or my team overall so could careless if I miss more other then maybe commercial contracts but if I start losing these then I am more likely to leave. Hard to stay interested when you are noncompetitive and racing only yourself.

Frank i hope you dontt see all this as disheartning there are a lot of people who have stayed for a very long time and enjoy the game. Just wsnt to see it grow and become more popular.

@Rob: You will see, your team will improve a lot next season, with good suppliers.
I had no experience with this game and I dont think I have very good staff either. And this is only my 2nd full season, and still I am close to winning a div 2 race, even though I stopped developing the current car a few weeks ago.
So I dont think its that hard to be competitive. Or I just had extreme luck with my staff.